109 - Chief Vibrational Officer interview: haptic suits bringing live music to deaf people

Our first Chief ~Vibrational~ Officer on the show! Daniel Belquer is co-founder of Music: Not Impossible based in Philadelphia. A composer of 20 years, Daniel has brought to life a Vibrotextile™ wearable technology that translates sound onto the skin through vibration. Although not health tech, innovations in assistive technology like these haptic suits allow people to engage more fully in the healing experience of music, which is incredibly cool.

This episode features exclusive, unreleased music from Daniel's upcoming album, and a sublime playlist assembled by musician, audio engineer and producer Josh Walton 🎸
You're in for a premium mixed bag of some local Australian and international artists. This episode's theme: b r e a k i n g  t h r o u g h

Treat your ears and check out Josh in action with Field Dream 💭💭 and check out the playlist HERE

Transcript

 0:01 

 Hello, hello, this is day and we are back for Tech & tunes in 2024. And I know it's been a while. I'm sorry we've taken a break, but to prove how much you mean to me, I've got a very, very special gift for you today in the form of exclusive unreleased music at the end of the episode, plus your themed playlist as per usual, which is sublime. Now, besides all the musical gems that are going to come through this guest is an absolute force of nature. They are allowing deaf and hard of hearing people to connect with others and share the experience of both listening to and participating in music. Times magazine named them one of 2023 Best Inventions among a range of other accolades. Um, and I will say in advance that you can hear my blocked nose in this one, but, um, I hope the goodies at the end make up for it. So with our guest coming in all the way from the US of hey! Join us as we chat about making Pharrell Williams wear a vibrating suit, the frequency threshold of human skin vibration being the pasta of technology and the art of haptics everywhere from music, football games, electric vehicles and motorsports with chief vibrational officer of music. Not impossible Daniel Belka. 3s I don't think we've even seen the tip 

 U2 

 1:31 

 of the iceberg. I think the potential of what the internet is going to do to society, both good 

 U1 

 1:38 

 and bad, is 

 U2 

 1:40 

 unimaginable. 

 U3 

 1:43 

 I think 

 U2 

 1:43 

 we're actually on the cusp of something exhilarating and terrifying. 1s It's just a tool, though, isn't 

 U1 

 1:51 

 it? No it's not. No, no, it's an alien life 

 U3 

 1:55 

 form. What do you think? 

 U1 

 1:57 

 When you. 

 U2 

 2:01 

 But I wanted to. To kick us off, um, with just congratulating you on being named one of time's 2023 Best Inventions. Um, and so, what is like when you started this journey a few years ago, you know, where did you think that you would end up in 2023? 

 U1 

 2:22 

 Um. 1s The whole musical impossible journey. Such a improbable and unlikely scenario for me, I could have never in my wildest dreams have even pictured, uh, you know, the journey that I've been on, um, because they moved to the US in 2014, actually, uh, and I and I started right away, um, you know, because I was approached by Patty Hanlon, uh, which is an engineer, and he knew Doctor Dave Petrino, uh, which, by the way, is Australian, uh, and, uh, and they put us connected to, uh, MC cabling, the CEO and founder of Not Impossible Labs, and they were looking for somebody to take over this idea, you know, of creating a better live music experience for the deaf, uh, through vibrations of the skin. And, you know, I was always, you know, working as an artist and directing my shows with technology and music. And, uh, I just was very attracted to the idea of, you know, helping the deaf community and creating something new. Um, and it's been it's going to be ten years now. It made just insane, you know, like, I couldn't have never pictured that. Uh, but throughout the years, we, we have learned a lot of, you know, different things. And, um. We have a very special place for, you know, the deaf and hard of hearing community that has been outstanding with the support and feedback, and we will learn so much from them. So I'm absolutely grateful. Yeah. 

 U2 

 4:01 

 Yeah, it could have. And has. This has the attention. Um, you know, changed things for you in the team. 

 U3 

 4:08 

 Um, we it was huge, you know, to to receive the award. Um, I was extremely happy, you know, because of that. Um, and, yeah, we, we had, like, a surge of requests, but last year was a very fruitful year. You know, like, we we had, like, a big, uh, New York Times article, like, you know, almost like a full page amazing article. We were featured in a New York Times bestselling book, you know, called Beyond Disruption several times. So it was a very, very, um, uh, like it was a year, uh, of a lot of acknowledgements, you know, so this kept, you know, driving people towards this for sure. 

 U2 

 4:52 

 Yeah. Um, and, you know, on the way, when you're building something, it's always important to celebrate those small wins. But when you have that, you know, those big moments of recognition, it can be kind of surreal. Um, so, yeah, you guys must be really proud. 

 U3 

 5:08 

 Yeah. It's always good, right? To to to see our work being, uh, recognized. And, you know, there's so much noise and so much, so many things happening all at the same time. So it's kind of like shining a small beam of light into an initiative where donating, you know, so much time and effort, uh, to put it together. It's always really, uh, yeah, it's really energizing. Right? Like, it gives hope and it renews the enthusiasm. Yeah, 

 U2 

 5:39 

 I bet. Um. So, uh, Daniel, when we first spoke, I was really, um, I was blown away by. And we were just chatting about it before the amount of hats that you wear. Um, and you seem to be talking to people from so many different cross sections of society in the course of your work and everyday life. I'm wondering, what's the biggest misconception about what you do at music? Not impossible. 

 U1 

 6:07 

 Um, I think the, 1s the most problematic aspect, I feel it's the language barrier. Mind you, because due to the lack of references, you know, uh, it's really hard for people to understand and grasp the concept. Like, even from a. Yeah, yeah, from a conceptual, uh, point of view, like when you start talking about, yeah, we're dealing with vibrations. People think of massage chairs and they think about other stuff, you know, like, ah, yeah, an earthquake or like a really loud base in a, in a concert. Uh, but that that's not what we do. And so it's really hard to make people, 

 U2 

 6:51 

 uh, you know, um, anticipate, uh, in their minds, what we are talking about. Um, I always, I like to think about when it was before, you know, sound before the introduction of speakers. Right. So now you can talk a lot of stuff about speakers and people understand like that. You can say like, oh, this speaker is really muffled or the sound is really loud or whatever. And it's it's natural, right? Like it's just part of second nature. We understand what people are talking about. Um, and I and I imagine a time when speakers weren't, you know, a thing. And when they came and people started trying to understand, like, oh, do they have people inside that box? Or, you know, even the most basic exceptions are like, how can they remain instruments in the things in the same, um, you know, in the same spot and how this sound felt kind of a natural because it was coming from a single spot instead of going, you know, like so, so many things, they have to adapt their perception. Understand. Uh, so I think we're in the same space, you know, like when we say, oh, we are creating, you know, the art of haptics, immersive music, all that kind of stuff. It's it's it's just like a you see people kind of blanking, but the moment they have the experience, it's like. 1s You 

 U1 

 8:14 

 have, like, an internal joke. That it's almost like a physiological reaction every time they have people experience experiencing music multiples for the first time. They have this expression. 1s So 

 U3 

 8:28 

 the drops and the ice ball. So I tried to become bold. I even call people out and say, like, listen, you're gonna have your eyes popping out and your jaw dropping. And then, you know, I keep talking about Lisa. Five minutes later, the person just forgot. And then I turn the things on and people like. 

 U2 

 8:45 

 Haha. That's 

 U1 

 8:47 

 it, you know. And back in the pool you have like a wired prototype. And very early on we got the chance to, uh, to present the technology Pharrell Williams. And he said it perfectly. I felt the future. And one thing that he said is like, until you experience you, you don't understand it. Uh, it's unfortunate, you know, for one point. But it's true, you know, like, because you really need to sink in and understand, like, a completely new, uh, sensation that is coming to your body from different points at the same time with different densities, frequencies, and a lot of, you know, textures. Uh, and this is, uh, something that, you know, takes a while for people to wrap their heads around. But as soon as you have the experience, uh, then things start making much more sense, you know? 

 U2 

 9:38 

 Yeah. Wow. What was it like? Um, uh, presenting that to Pharrell Williams? 

 U1 

 9:44 

 I thought, it's wonderful. He's such a sweet, uh. Uh, you know, uh. 1s Smart person. He understood everything super quickly. And we actually have a video of him, you know, saying a few things and spot on like one after the other. And he has, uh, some form of, uh, synesthesia. Right. So he feels a sound. He's, uh, stuff. So he's very good in associating different senses to, uh, to different things. So he just got it, like, immediately. It was very impressive. Uh, probably one of the fastest, uh, comprehensions of what was happening kinetically and in terms of body, uh, awareness that I, that I've seen, you know, like, it was really, really cool. 

 U2 

 10:29 

 This was an interesting revelation because it sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole about synesthesia. Um, I thought I'd explain a little bit about what it is. So synesthesia, if I can say it properly. Um, is a name for when you experience one of your senses through another. So a person with synesthesia experiences links between one sense and a usually unrelated type of sensory perception. So there's a kind of overlap between different physical sensations. And it's thought to manifest differently in different people. So although they might both experience tastes in response to sounds, 1st May link the musical note like a C-sharp with a lemony flavor while the other perceives vanilla. That said, there are certain broad categories of association that might be more common than others. For example, research has found that synesthetes are more likely to link sweet and sour tastes with high pitched sounds and bitter or savory tastes with lower pitches. This suggests that at least some kinds of synesthesia might be just amplifying the mental links that are present at low levels in most people. And perhaps unsurprisingly, there are quite a few notable artists who've claimed to have the condition. So, for example, Duke Ellington, uh, for him, a day note looked like a dark blue burlap fabric, while the G note was a light blue satin. And when Pharrell Williams listened to Earth, Wind and Fire as a kid, he saw Burgundy or Baby Blue, and Kanye West claims that pianos are blue for him and snares are white and baselines are dark brown and purple. While Frank ocean may be, unsurprisingly, seas orange a lot of the time, so the more you know. 2s And with synesthesia, as you say, like he would be one of the perfect people to road test the technology on. Yeah, but did he have the face? Did he have the face? Really turned out? 

 U1 

 12:31 

 You know, and I 

 U2 

 12:33 

 can imagine him being very, like, composed. Yeah. Very 

 U1 

 12:36 

 composed, very elegant, you know, very cool. Uh, but, you know, to my, uh, in my defense, I can say this was a very early prototype. What we do nowadays is, like, light years ahead of, you know, uh, from that point where we started, everything was still, like, full of wires. It was very Frankenstein ish kind of thing, you know? 

 U2 

 12:58 

 Yeah. Now I see I've seen some of your, um, videos on the Not Impossible website, and, yeah, they look slightly scary. There's still a lot of wires. Um, but the car. Yeah, the car model looks incredible. It looks really comfortable, actually. 

 U1 

 13:14 

 I wear it for hours and hours, and, you know, it's fine. 

 U2 

 13:17 

 Yeah. Um, so, uh, I mean, on that, on that note about, you know, the actual nuance of the vibration or the haptics itself, um, as you say, you know, even when I think about it, I haven't had the the pleasure of trying out the suit yet, but you tend to think of like, vibration from your phone, or I can think about different intensities of vibration, but obviously there's a lot more going on. So what makes these haptic suits so different to that? 

 U1 

 13:49 

 So for starters, um. 2s When I started researching this, there was two parallel lanes of thought about haptics. So one was gimmicky stuff. You know that we are all aware. So there's this monster on the screen and he's tapping on the floor. And then a few things shaking right in the entertainment space. And the other is from a very respected scientist called Doctor David Eagleman. And he was talking about a haptic language. So how to create, uh, things that can be understood rationally and, and, uh, and can be like a means of communication. And at the time, people were saying, oh, this is going to be the new Morse code or the new braille or, you know, or the new, uh, tactile sign language, you know. Uh. But I was coming. I know art and technology was always my life, and I was like, it doesn't. It doesn't vibe with me, you know, pun intended. Because, um, how can you can you like if a hearing person gets into a venue and they're watching a band or an orchestra or whatever musical experience, uh, they're having, and the person goes in and they might not like the genre of music or they love it, but they get it right. Like it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a very instinctual, very like primary, uh, response that you, that we have as humans to music. Right. So for me it felt like kind of off to think that the deaf and hard of hearing, they would have to go through a process of training and understanding the vocab vocabulary of the what was being transmitted in order to be able to enjoy. And it felt like very rational. Also, here's the base and he's doing this and that, you know. So for me, like my first motto was there should be no learning curve. 

 U3 

 15:55 

 Period. 

 U1 

 15:56 

 And that was actually the hardest thing to achieve. It took me over a year to, uh, you know, I got several prototypes. Try and try and try and try. I have one. Oh, I have it here. Sorry. I want to show you this because it's right here. Please 

 U3 

 16:11 

 do. At this point, Daniel pulls out a piece of very complicated looking fabric about the size of an A4 sheet of paper, with 30,000 wires soldered to it. 

 U1 

 16:23 

 I learned so much from this guy. 2s Because. Yeah. Here you are. 2s So it seems simple at the front. A lot of pager motors. But look at this. 

 U2 

 16:38 

 Wild. Wow. 

 U3 

 16:41 

 Well, this is all soldered by hand and hot glue, and you can't imagine the amount of time that I put in labeling every cable and doing. And this was I was so proud. Was like, I got it now. Understood. I'm going to create like a system and I'm going to reverse and, and mirror and have a series of motors and whatever. And the experience was horrible. It didn't work at all. And then I was like, oh, you know, 

 U1 

 17:09 

 uh, so it was a huge lesson in don't dive in and solder 3000 wires before doing 2 or 3 and testing if the approach works. But also, um, it was like. 

 U3 

 17:25 

 It's not about, uh, being able to just provide complexity. You have to be able to relate to what's being translated immediately. And and the thing that helped me most was to turn my back into music for a moment. So I said, okay, I'm not doing music. I'm I'm doing something different. The skin is a completely different sense. It has a cap on 1000Hz. You know how you know? Informed our audiences about, like all the technical stuff. But, you know, the year goes to 20,000Hz and the skin stops at a thousand. But even then, you know, if you go above for 100Hz, things start to get a little complicated. But there are certain things that the skin does really well, you know, um, and it's different in different parts of your body. For example, your wrist is very sensitive to very fast and, you know, small movement and it detects that very well. Uh, but texture, uh, you know, if you feel movement, it's like panning, uh, in the space, you know, the sound going, going around you, but more, much more precisely. So I started to think about what I call today, the art of haptics. So I stopped, like, okay. 1s Uh, this is music. Kind of. But it has its own pros and cons, you know, and they are different. Some some things are very similar, but some things are completely different. So the, the point I started like really adjusting for that thought. Then I got a good, uh, approach and, uh, you know, David Perry and make tridents. Like, not now you have it. Let's just put it out to the, you know, to the world. And that's when the project really took off and we had like, uh, Mandy Harvey, you know, the deaf singer coming in in the Katie Couric show, you know, and, and I moved to LA. I had my lab there and stuff. So that's really when things started, uh, moving. Uh. But he had to make sense from an experience perspective. And then because I always, um, I worked my, you know, I made a living for almost 20 years as a professional composer. I wanted things to be really, really special. Like, I want an experience that really elevated people and gave them the opportunity to express themselves through the skin, and not just something gimmicky that would shake people up. So that was the the hard part. So nowadays we have 24 points. They are all individually addressable, meaning imagine like 24 voices and each voice potentially doing a different thing, right? Um, so in those voices they translate into vibration. So basically you can create a whole, you know, huge palette of, uh, sensations by changing the frequency of each point and making stronger or weaker and making creating the illusion of movement across the body. Actually, the the experience I just had, uh, in Belgium in a soccer match. Uh, we were creating vibrations for their fans that they were watching the game, and the thing they liked most was the goal celebration. Uh. Fortunately, it worked really well. And and it really was something that highlighted the emotions of the goal. And what I did was to make the the vibrations, uh, go around the body, you know, all kinds up and down and all kinds of crazy things. And with, uh, an increasing speed, you know, and that drove people that they were really, really happy. Everybody, uh, said at the end that was their favorite thing. Uh, and it should. Right. The the the the goal is the apex of the. Yeah, of the game. So, uh, um, yeah. So. 

 U1 

 21:15 

 Yeah. That's basically, 

 U2 

 21:18 

 you know, that's just it. Yeah. No, I mean, it sounds incredible, but I'm so, so intrigued to try it. So, um, I mean, 

 U1 

 21:27 

 I don't know if you know that, right? Yeah, yeah. MIT and new New Market Collective that are wonderful people. 

 U2 

 21:36 

 But like, that's a really good segue because I was about to ask, like, um, you've you've just rolled it out at a football match in Belgium. And then I think on your Instagram, I saw car racers as well. The people can enhance the experience. Like, um, you know, one of the context, do you see this being like a useful tool in that experience? So 

 U1 

 21:58 

 I, I see vibrations and such a powerful and still really underutilized, uh, technology, uh, that you, you can basically slap into any, any experience. Right. Like there's a huge push now to include advanced haptics into car seats and steering wheels, you know, so there, especially on electric cars that lack the the emotion of the motor, you know, I'm not a car person, but people who really like the rendering of the motor. So they're recreating that and they are applying vibrations to the seats to give you the emotion or, you know, of driving. But you can see it in sports, wellness, you know, and meditation, uh, live events of any kind, museum installations, movies, VR, home entertainment. Like, I don't see any limitation, you know, it's it's, uh. 1s In 2016. I had like, this, um, document that I created. I call it the pasta document because the same way Italians created, you know, they didn't create the Chinese created the past, but it was popularized the Western world through the Italians. Uh, they have, you know, cannelloni, ravioli, uh, lasagne, spaghetti, pizza, whatever. And it's a single ingredient, right? Like it's fast, but. Sure. And and in each, each, each dish, you have a lot of variations as well. You can have, you know, many combinations. So I see vibration as the pasta of technology like you can apply into anything. It's just a matter of how you craft it. And it's an art form in itself. Uh, but it can provide really, really powerful experiences, you know? So, um, I see it going very vigorous, you know, and being applied in all kinds of different scenarios. We just started with sports. The experience you mentioned, um, was in Japan. They invited us, you know, three times already. It seems like we're going again this year. They love it. Uh, and in Belgium, we had the soccer match. We're talking about other sports, uh, uh, companies as well. Uh, but I don't see us, uh, stopping there. We we will have, you know, many types of different experiences. 

 U2 

 24:17 

 Yeah. Um, I can only imagine. And I mean, when I was thinking about the suit, I was thinking like, well, why couldn't a deaf or hard of hearing person just wear it around every day? Um, so do you see that as kind of the natural extension of this? So I know you mentioned before that people were kind of saying, ah, haptics could be the new braille. Like, do you think this could basically supplement sign language for communication and things like that? Or. 

 U1 

 24:43 

 I do think especially, for example, when when deaf are called, you know, from behind, let's say, right. And they don't have, you know, the ability to turn around. And this is a huge, uh, factor for daily employment in, uh, in the deaf community. And it's very sad. And, you know, they have very high rates of suicide and depression, alcoholism, you know, just because of the language issues. So I can totally see actually saving lives and changing people radically. Uh, with this technology, there was one factor that I thought it was never solved quite well, which was the the interpretation. Right. Because if you're using, uh, wearable things, your spaces and batteries are very constrained. But now with the push of AI and I believe, uh, being built in microcontrollers, this can totally be a reality, you know, because you can embed, like, a whole, uh, you know, interpretation system locally and let's say, oh, when somebody called my name, just tap on my shoulder or something like that. And, uh, and, you know, with a simple microphone and stuff, I actually shouldn't have said that. They should have patented that idea because they think it's just an anyways, something like that. You know, along those lines, you can create all kinds of, uh, crazy applications that could really benefit the, the, the life of, of the deaf and hard of hearing, uh, especially now with the this, um, fast advancement into AI and microcontrollers. 

 U2 

 26:19 

 Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, it's actually really great speaking to you because you're, you know, you've produced hardware. Um, and I think for the everyday person, you know, we hear so much about software and SAS and, and artificial intelligence really dominating conversation. What do you think? Um, we're missing when it comes to hardware that we actually need to bring that, you know, those applications to life. I, 

 U1 

 26:46 

 I, I am I'm kind of biased, you know, because even in my art installations, I always favored, uh, concrete stuff. You know, I was always a little skeptic of scree screens and the computer themselves because I think they're amazing tools, but they're they're kind of over, uh, fetish fetish, fetish sized or 50 foot in size. Thank you. Yeah. Turning to a fetish, right. Like, basically, uh, too much. And they're like, oh, my God, the computers. You know, in the screens and, and software, it has like a massive, uh, uh, obviously, uh, it's very important that. Right. We're talking over software. Right. But we're talking over software in a hardware. Right. Which is the computer in this case. But, uh, if you push a button like updates, like millions of people, you know, today, you know, uh, than have internet access can just have the new version of whatever, whatever you created. The hardware is hard, right? As the name implies. Because if something goes wrong, you know, during the manufacturing process or you want to to embed the new feature or you want to change the color, it's actually like the physical stuff. But I think imitation, uh, has a has its appeal, you know, because. 

 U3 

 28:09 

 Are. 2s Everything I have done and the way I see. You know what we do. It's about connectivity, like human connection, you know? So it's all about being in the moment, in the presence of others. And this I learned actually what draw my attention really hard for this I can tell like the exact day because we're doing an event, uh, in, in L.A. with deaf attendees and it was it was a wireless version already, but it was very primitive, the first wireless version ever. And we have we had like the band playing on stage, wearing. 1s Music not impossible in a group of deaf participants. Another point, they came to me and said, Daniel, um, can we have the the drums going to the ankle? To the wrists? Sorry. Uh, and I said, yeah, sure. So, you know, it's very dynamic. I just changed stuff there. And they were like, oh, thank you. We left. So but that was like, wait a minute, why do they want the drums on the wrists? Because, you know, I used to put them on the like on the back and the ankles because you feel like stomping and dancing and everybody enjoyed it. But I was intrigued, so I called them back at the end of the concert when they were, you know, uh, taking off the suits. And I said, listen, why why did you ask me for the the drums on the wrist? And it's all it was because everybody was, you know, waving their hands in the air. And we just wanted to be part of that. And then I was like, oh my God. It's not just about the musical experience, obviously. It's about the human connection. I want to be part of something larger than me, and I want to feel like part of everybody else. And I'd just be like, whoa, what's happening? You know? Um. And there was this other deaf guy, uh, at the end of a concert. He came crying like, oh, I'm 40 years old. I always loved going to rock concerts, but I was born deaf. I never understood why people got so excited when the drummers were just flailing the arms in the air like that. At the end of the songs, I was like, why? People are so excited? But now I understand. He was crying, you know? So, oh, all about this thing that people can share. You know, half of the audience is deaf and half is hearing, and you cannot tell the difference with just humans having fun and having a good time with their music. So it's all about that. And I think hardware helps you bridge that gap and get those experiences across, even more so than, uh, you know, screens and, and software because it's, it's a kind of like AI because then you are, uh, relating to other people and connecting as well, like we are doing, but kind of mediated. Right. And I always like, you know, the, the physical experience, the live events. I think this is very there's a special factor there. And there are actually scientific studies saying that there is brain synchronization happening in an audience and across musicians and, you know, and so there's something special happening there. Um, and I think that's that's beautiful. And hardware, uh, helps with that, like connecting the technology on the actual spot and being part of humans regular activities, you know, um, 

 U2 

 31:25 

 I guess, yeah. You're not just relying on, like, one source of input, like through a screen, you know, you're actually using the entirety of the human body for a human experience. So that makes total sense. Yeah. Um, like when 

 U1 

 31:37 

 we're. 1s You guys are, you know, just going to say like when we are going to a concert and we are hearing, right, like. 1s How cool it is to just, you know, have a friend or, you know, your partner or whoever by your side and just talking things like, oh, this is cool. Look at that. Let's have a beer. This whole part of the experience is not just like I'm here and you are there and, you know, like, no, we're here, you know, and and I think the, the viral, uh, tactile technology, um, you know, helps, uh, this connection and not it's not an isolated perspective, you know, uh, I think it, uh, even like if you think of specific applications, one thing that I was thinking the other day is like when you, let's say you are a miner and you are like going to a coal mine or whatever, something hard and dangerous or like a platform under or whatever. And, and you know, there are loud, loud sounds happening, so you cannot hear like a speaker announcement or something. Your, your, your vision is connected to something that you need to do there. But there is some, uh, some emergency alert or something, you know, like the vibration is really convenient for that. You know, like all when you feel like when you feel the your shirt vibrating quickly, just get out of there as quickly as you can, you know, just. Uh, rambling here, but just to make the point of, uh. You know how hard they can be beneficial and not just, um. 2s Um, you know, uh, in connecting people and helping human experiences. 

 U2 

 33:15 

 Yeah. And I can absolutely say that, um, and I was trying to think, like, in the grand scheme of things. 1s What attempts there have been to make. Um, even if we just talk about music now, like music more accessible. And I actually couldn't think of that much I could think of, you know, um, sign language interpreters at concerts, um, and, you know, maybe, like, captions on a screen. But where does this technology sit within that grand scheme of things for making music and music experiences more accessible? 

 U3 

 33:48 

 Yeah. I think you just, like, hit the the the nail on the head. Uh, these are the only two things that I, that I know of captions and sign language interpreters. And I think we just blend very similarly into that. Right. Like, um. If you have the the lyrics on screen. It's, you know, you can relate to the content, but you, you lack the emotional aspect, right? And I have a, you know, a dear friend. Her name is Amber G. She's one of like the rock stars in the deaf community, and she created a whole system for signing, uh, music concerts. You know, she did Lady Gaga, Red Hot Chili Peppers. But the impressive thing is she also does instrumental music. So with her body, she's able to express the whole palette of emotions of a song. And when we had the show the greatest network with music. Not impossible in 2020, uh, right before Covid, uh, in New York, I asked her to be center stage, you know, um, interpreting the music that I was producing because I think it's so beautiful. You know, there there's something really important about that. But in terms of technologies that are being created to really change the situation and make, uh, immersive music more accessible, right. Uh, I, I don't see other alternatives other than what we do and captions and, uh, sign language translators. 

 U2 

 35:17 

 Yeah. Um, so, I mean, it's incredible that you guys are actually forging that path because, I mean, it's, you know, we've had music since the beginning of time, so it's about time that, um, people, you know, do a def can actually enjoy it with, you know, the rest of society. 

 U1 

 35:34 

 Um, and also the educational aspect. You know, like, I see a world with orchestras and, and deaf composers composing and, you know, and creating and not just being the recipients of technology, but actually actively contributing for the, for, you know, for the creation of new pieces and interesting artworks and, you know, just unleashing the creativity of, you know. Or the humans? 

 U2 

 36:01 

 Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, we've spoken about the technology a lot. I'm interested in your, um, like, business model. And, uh, also like your relation to the not impossible labs. Um, so. So not impossible. Was the incubator that you joined in order to bring this project to life? Is that right? Or how does that work? 

 U1 

 36:26 

 Yeah, that is exactly what it is. So, uh, in the beginning, this was a project of not impossible, right? Uh, and then, uh, over the years, as we started, like, receiving awards and acknowledgements and seeing how strong the, the, you know, the solution was for both the hearing and the, uh, deaf and hard of hearing. Um, then we we spun off, uh, a separate company called Music Reports Book. Um. And it's still part of the umbrella company called Not Impossible Labs. Um, and we have other companies in the same scenario, like Bento, for example, being an amazing example, feeding people, you know, people who have, you know, who are going through hunger and they can just send a, you know, a text message and receive a free meal, like amazing stuff. So they have other initiatives, uh, that have like a similar approach. So music not impossible became its own entity. Uh, but it was always like a project based, you know, once a year, twice a year. We have this massive thing sponsored by a brand, uh, but, uh, since 2021, I started a new business model, which is, uh, led to services, you know, for events. So you have a, you know, an organization or you have an event and you have like, you are an artist, you want to create a new, you know, layer of experience for your audience, or you know, you are a brand. You want to sponsor an event, VIP at a festival or whatever. And then we started doing that. And since then we did over 30 events all over the world is really took off, and we are now getting ready for a mass production and releasing the the new version of the technology by the end of next year. So I'm really, really excited about that because you know, we we got this form factor in 2018. So it's been six years now and we learned so much from it. Uh, and now we can, you know, take the next step and take this to a completely new, uh, level, which is very exciting. 

 U2 

 38:28 

 Incredible. And, um, can we expect to see more in Australia and other countries? Are you going to be focused in the US for that rollout? 

 U1 

 38:37 

 Absolutely not. Uh, we always, uh, we always had like, uh, international, um, you know, approach. So we have been having experiences in Brazil, uh, you know, in Belgium, Japan. And we have our friends and partners, uh, collaborators, uh, New Market Collective and uh, and uh, RMIT as well, uh, there, Professor Darren Hagen and, and there are MIT and Akili and Gus, uh, at the New Market Collective. Amazing friends, beautiful people. And I loved Melbourne so much. It's such a musical, wonderful cultural city. I was at, uh, the Alexander McQueen exhibition at the Victoria's, uh, you know, uh, uh, Queen Victoria's museum. And it's just wonderful. I just loved it. So I'm just looking for an opportunity to go back. You know, it's not a problem at all. 

 U3 

 39:33 

 So today is being done with the theme of breaking through. So I chose this because I thought of breaking through barriers that, you know, the deaf and hard of hearing community have experienced up until now to engage fully with creating and listening to music and the barriers that that puts up between us in an experience that's meant to be shared. We have, um, today an incredible local musician, audio engineer and producer by the name of Josh Walton, who's compiled the playlist on today's theme. But Daniel has thrown a glorious spanner and incredible surprise in the works with his own music. 

 U1 

 40:15 

 So, uh, when you, when you, uh, ask me that question, the, uh, inadvertently, you threw me into, like, a huge, uh, rabbit hole and of great wildlife because, uh, I'm releasing a novel this year, and I could not take off the, you know, my mind from one of my songs. And I was like, this is like a shameless plug. I'm not gonna do that. No. Do 

 U2 

 40:41 

 it, do it. 

 U1 

 40:43 

 You know, I had no choice. It's like, this is if I'm going to be transparent and honest, like. When I think of Break Through, you know, breaking through, I think of this song and keeps it kept coming back and over and over again. So some that's it. You know, like that's what I would say, you know, for the theme. Yeah. It's called Spirit Out. I can send you the file. The album's not out yet. Um, but I don't mind you including the in the playlist. It's just the unreleased. It's a, it's a rough mix 

 U2 

 41:14 

 exclusives here on Tech and Juice. 

 U1 

 41:16 

 Actually, you're going to be premiering, you know, the, the album. Uh. 2s Uh, but yeah, 1s yeah. Because the song talks about, you know, like you, you, you break in your, your ties and just being unleashed from a lot of, uh, you know, constraints of, you know, expressing yourself and how to put yourself out there. So it totally connected with the concept of breaking through for me particularly, you know, so it's like, okay, 

 U3 

 41:47 

 so exciting. I've never had an unreleased single 

 U2 

 41:51 

 turn that way before. 

 U1 

 41:53 

 I'm really proud of this work. It's my my because I, I, I worked as a professional composer for almost 20 years and I've never released like, a song singer songwriter kind of album. Uh, and I've been working on this for a while now, and I've been performing in New York. In Brazil, I did like an open mic night in Belgium, and, and people in Philadelphia did a bunch of shows, and people have been receiving it very warmly and, and, and seem to to enjoy the, the weirdness of the, of the work. So I'm really happy to, you know, be, uh, releasing it. And I just thought it was, uh, yeah. The like the, the concept of breaking through was like, man, I have that. That's it for me, you know? 

 U3 

 42:39 

 Traffic's 

 U2 

 42:40 

 amazing. I can't wait to hear it. Um, cool. And, um, if I can show you for one more minute. Do you have any words of wisdom for anyone listening who might want to make their own journey into wearable hardware, or mixing creativity with accessibility or tech or. Yeah, any words of wisdom you want to share? 

 U1 

 43:03 

 Absolutely. I, I don't know if it's wisdom. It's just my experience. Uh. 1s And that I have a lot. I might not have so much. I have a lot of experience. So what I can say is, like, I sometimes I look with a little suspicion towards like grit, perseverance, uh, you know, force of will and, and courage and all this kind of stuff. Because it feels to me, it feels in hindsight. Right? Like after you saw a person going through a lot of stuff, then, oh, he had grit. He had this and had that. But going through the stuff for me, purpose is much more important because if you have purpose, like you, you, you endure stuff because you really want to see things through, you know? And I don't mean like a humanistic purpose per se, but just the enjoyment of, you know, really bringing an idea down to reality. And, uh, and, and, and related to that, I think people have to. To remove completely the fear of failure. Uh, because we always, uh, prize. This society is very, um, you know, kind of, uh, putting, you know, winners on a pedestal and giving them trophies and losers. And then there's the flip side when like, oh, everybody deserves like a second place, which is kind of like doing the same thing in reverse. So it's kind of messy in that front. I think we're in like a transition. But what I really believe in is it doesn't matter, you know, like, uh, failure is part of the learning process and some people are going to get there fast and people are going to get there slow. The only day I was having a very interesting discussion with a writer and, um, and I said, you know what? I act like, uh, you know, the, the, the, the third is right. And, uh, you know, the hare just was just sleeping there and just, 1s uh, when, you know, and crossed the finish line in this thing because I was just slow and steady, breaking things, making things wrong. But I kept going because I was just, you know, enjoying the process and not being like, oh, my God, it failed again. No. It failed. Okay. So now I learned how not to do this and whatever. Uh, and then he said, yeah, but um, you can only pull this off one time, right? All of the other times, uh, the hare is going to win. And they said, okay, fine, but who is going to who who says that I'm going to be playing the game, right? Um, why don't we change the game? And suddenly it's like, how can you stand still for two hours? Who's going to win that? Right? So it's like it's all about this, you know, defying these assumptions of, you know, what's, uh, winning and losing, what's, uh, failure and success and, uh, and it's all about the journey from, you know, like, you have to you you you have to you don't have to have anything. But it's good if you have a purpose and it's good if you if you don't, uh, beat yourself up because you failed. Uh. Music. Not impossible. As an example, I failed 10,000 times and people see the one that was working and I just showed you one that was completely, uh, wrong. And uh, and you have no idea how much effort they put into that. And like, it was really, really intense and it didn't work. And it's like, okay, you know, obviously there's frustration because you want to accomplish something. It's not going the way you should, but, you know, take lightly and let's say like, oh yeah, it didn't work. So let me try another way and keep going. And as long as you have the drive and the drive meaning that you want to, to see things through and it's simple as that, I don't, you know, and then they can say, oh, you, you went through a lot of ups and downs. Yeah. Because they wanted to write like I was enjoying the thing I had, you know, a lot of joy, you know, experiencing new stuff like, oh my God, this is so cool. And you keep trying, you know? Anyways, 

 U2 

 47:07 

 um, yeah, I completely agree. And, um, I, I know that if you're not failing at something, you're probably not trying new things. Um, so it's a, it's a good indication that you're getting out there and you're putting yourself in these situations. 

 U1 

 47:22 

 Yeah, 1s right. I have three kids and I love to see how they manage, you know, the the failures and all this stuff. And they simply don't care, right? They, they, they speak the, the word, the word wrong 10,000 times until they get it right and it's just, yeah, okay, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so like, it's blasphemous, you know? Yeah. Like that. Um, yeah. Yeah, I think we, we are here for a limited amount of time. We don't know where we're going to go. And we should just, you know, be, uh, I believe in being a constructive force and, you know, leaving things, uh, a little better than when we we found. 

 U2 

 48:06 

 Yeah, well, what a you know, what a beautiful message to end on. Um, and let you get back to those kids and do the school run. Um, I don't want to keep you from them, but, um, thank you so much for joining me today. And, um, yeah, I think people are going to be so mind blown when they hear about the technology and also just the ways that you're making creativity, as you said, not just more accessible to witness, but actually to participate in for people who've been, um, left out essentially up until now. So thank you. Um, and yeah, I'm really, really keen to hear the single as well. 

 U1 

 48:45 

 Oh. Thank you. Yeah. I'll see you tonight. Thank you so much. Have a good one. 

 U2 

 48:51 

 Just before we get into Daniel's new singles, Spit It Out. I am really excited to introduce Josh Walton, who's put together around three hours of musical exploration for us all within the theme Breaking Through. And when I asked Josh how he'd gone about putting this playlist together that you guys will be able to access through the description of the episode and through our socials, he responded with this. After many years of working, playing and being a part of the music industry, the concept of breaking through can sometimes feel a little challenging to grasp. I've had a lot of highs and a hell of a lot of lows in my time, making these points with a sense of reflection and remembering the reasons behind doing what I do whilst trying to keep an attitude of get on with it, move forward and stay true to myself. And my love for music has always been my way of staying happy and real. Without community, I would have struggled to find my fate and be inspired to be part of this industry. That's why I've learned quite a few songs by friends and artists that are close to me, and whom I've felt supported by over the years. Along with, these are a bunch of artists that I always find myself coming back to for inspiration, and that have had so much influence on my writing, production, and overall way of thinking. I hate to think of what my life would be without this kind of influence, and I'm so grateful to be part of this community. Sticking together and pushing creativity whilst feeling supported is incredibly powerful and something that I'm proud of in Melbourne. I've always felt the art scene here is held with such high value, even from those who aren't directly part of it. Everyone that goes to shows, festivals, exhibitions and community events should pat themselves on the back and keep doing what they're doing. We wouldn't be able to break through the barriers, start new projects, and keep going without you. So I've linked to Josh's music in the episode description and on our socials, so make sure you check him out. And I don't know about you, but I feel more motivated than ever to get down to the tote and discover something new. But for those of you who can't do that, we've got this exclusive for you right here. So thank you so much for joining us, and let us know what you think of the show. 

 U1 

 51:11 

 This mother of a weary candle as it finally burns out. 1s A couple of great smoke dancers in the fresh, familiar dark, 

 U3 

 51:23 

 faded feathers fanned the flame it lights. 

 U2 

 51:29 

 Resentment 

 U1 

 51:30 

 goes so low and orange. But courage burns bright blue. 30s I agree to see. Agreeable. 2s And. 

 U3 

 52:12 

 I don't. 

 U1 

 52:15 

 I've been in my 

 U3 

 52:16 

 own so much. Got a true blood. It tastes like 2s the table stakes 

 U1 

 52:22 

 are. All right. You're great. 

 U3 

 52:24 

 To throw my own shoes. 39s Enough rope hanging, enough rope to be 

 U1 

 53:06 

 tangled with enough lap to 

 U3 

 53:08 

 span Lycra fast enough to rip. Dangerous, afraid, and aging with enough left. You'll leave me not. One 

 U1 

 53:17 

 tied to a high note. The swing goes so quickly from 

 U3 

 53:20 

 sturdy to bring. Camden broke. I feel like 

 U1 

 53:24 

 a whip crack. The southern flank takes me 

 U3 

 53:26 

 up back and like, back down on the ground where you found me. 24s I'm joined. Spit it out. 4s You can make it six.